Episode Transcript
[00:00:04] Mariska Hargitay: Welcome. I'm Mariska Hargitay, and this is Survivor Stories, a podcast of the Joyful Heart Foundation, which I started more than 20 years ago to transform society's response to sexual assault, domestic violence, and child abuse. Thank you for joining us today. Survivor Stories introduces you to some of the remarkable people that we at the Foundation have met over the years. Through interviews with host and longtime board member Debbie Millman, you will hear from these people, some of whom have survived profoundly difficult, painful experiences of violence and gone on to change the world. I hope you find their stories as inspiring and enlightening and motivating as I do.
[00:00:56] Debbie Millman: Please note that this episode contains depictions of sexual abuse and other violence. Please take care of yourself and go to our website, JoyfulHeartFoundation.org to find resources and hotlines if needed.
[00:01:14] Ashley Spence: I know what it feels like to wait for justice. I mean, I lived seven years in fear and you know, seven years I would hear just screams of his next victims. Literally. I couldn't sleep at night. I couldn't, you know, do most normal, functioning things. But I survived. But I cared most about what I knew he was out there doing. And so to know we have a technology that could potentially catch and exonerate people. Literally both ends of the coin in 90 minutes. It's huge.
[00:01:44] Debbie Millman: Welcome to Survivor Stories, the podcast of the Joyful Heart Foundation, where we meet the people who are helping to reshape society's approach to domestic violence, sexual assault and child abuse. I'm your host, Debbie Millman, longtime board member of Joyful Heart, working alongside our fearless founder, Mariska Hargitay. Today, we're going to talk about a disturbing problem that's making it harder for investigators to solve cases of sexual assault and bring justice to survivors. You may be aware that the FBI maintains a DNA database with over 18 million profiles of people who have been charged with or committed crimes. This database, which goes by the acronym CODIS, has aided in over 730,000 investigations to date and been instrumental in catching countless perpetrators. And yet, it is still far, far short of its potential. To fully realize the public safety benefits of DNA technology, the database needs to be as complete as possible, and yet thousands and quite possibly millions of DNA samples that should be in the database have yet to be collected.
[00:03:05] Debbie Millman: These uncollected samples are called lawfully owed DNA. They belong to people who have been charged or convicted of serious crimes, and yet for many different reasons their DNA has never been collected and put into the system. This has had a devastating impact on victims of rape and sexual assault. For instance, currently, only about one-quarter of tested rape kits result in matches in the offender DNA database. Experts believe the match rate would be much higher if all of the lawfully owed DNA was in the system. It's estimated that as many as 40 to 50,000 DNA samples are missing from each and every state. In California alone, the number of uncollected samples may be as high as 1.5 million. My guest today is Ashley Spence, founder of the DNA Justice Project. She is an expert on the subject of lawfully owed DNA and the shortcomings of the national DNA database, and has been working tirelessly to advocate for forensic DNA laws and technology that can bring justice for victims, exonerate the innocent, and stop serial offenders before they cause more harm. She is also a survivor of sexual assault. Ashley, thank you so much for joining us today to talk about the disturbing failure of systems to collect lawfully owed DNA and what you and other advocates are doing to address the problem.
[00:04:49] Ashley Spence: Thank you so much for having me. I'm so honored. I'm so grateful. I've been a fan of your podcast and the mission of Joyful Heart Foundation. I. It's been over 20 years. I'm so grateful to be here to speak about this really important other side of the issue of collecting DNA.
[00:05:06] Debbie Millman: Ashley, before we talk about your advocacy, can we take a moment to talk about your personal connection to this issue? Long before you became an advocate, you were a student at Arizona State University. You were 19 years old, a sophomore, and you became a victim of sexual assault. Since your work as an advocate is so closely tied to your personal journey, if it's not too difficult, I was wondering, to the extent you feel comfortable, if you could talk about your experience and your journey to becoming a DNA advocate. Can you take listeners back to that night in 2003?
[00:05:45] Ashley Spence: Yes, and I know probably many listeners might have an experience of their own. So I do want to say, you know, it it can be a bit triggering. I always feel that's important to say, but one of my greatest teachers always said, in order to heal, we have to feel. So hopefully me sharing this, if something comes in with you that just shines a light on something that needs its own healing and we can heal out of the most difficult, unimaginable circumstances. I was a 19 year old college student. I was really excited. You know, I was going into my sophomore year and I loved Arizona State. I was from Texas, and it just felt really good to be on my own and free, you know? And I was excited to go back after summer break and get to know my new roommate. And I was going to be in an apartment, not in a dorm. And it was just all those little things. I couldn't wait to get back. And unfortunately, it was about a week before school started, and I remember I was on the phone with my mom outside. We were in a really big apartment complex, and it was mainly full of like college students right outside Tempe and Phoenix. So since we were there about a week early, there weren't many people in the apartment yet, so I was in the back corner unit on the ground floor, and I remember I was just talking to my mom and the sun was setting. It was one of those really hot Arizona nights, and the sky was turning from pink to to darkness. And for some reason I felt in in the pit of my gut. Now, it wasn't an anxious feeling.
[00:07:10] Ashley Spence: It was this, like, very jarring, but deep, grounded inner knowing that something was terribly wrong and it was so strong and profound. I thought maybe, you know, like, I'm 19, I'm about to go out with my friends. We haven't seen each other in a while. I thought maybe I was going to get into some trouble. I had no idea, but I didn't realize that was an intuitive premonition of what was to come. And I, you know, I went out with my friends, I came home, and eventually everyone left our apartment. And I went to bed that night, as I always was, blessed to have, or so I thought, you know, feeling safe to go to sleep. And unfortunately, I wasn't. And I'm not going to go into a lot of details here. But while I was asleep in the middle of the night, an intruder came into my apartment, and I was very violently and repeatedly assaulted, beaten. And I'm very, very lucky to have survived. It was for hours. And, you know, the the incredible thing is that I'm here today. But he got away and I never saw the face of the person that did this to me. And before he left, he threatened my life. He said, don't tell anybody because I'm going to be watching you, and I will come back and I will kill you. And I remember immediately, you know, I jumped out of bed and I ran around, broke my window and just went to my roommate's master door and, you know, just yelling like, call 911. And I did. I worked day and night with detectives. I didn't know anything about a forensic sexual assault nurse examination.
[00:08:37] Debbie Millman: I'm so sorry that you experienced this horror. After that, you faced the incredibly difficult reality of waiting years for justice. It was seven years, in your case. Why did it take so long? And what were those years like for you?
[00:08:55] Ashley Spence: There were days that I felt so many tears fell and the dark was so numbing. I couldn't get out of bed. I couldn't function properly. Right. And I never thought I would see the light. And then the next day, it wouldn't feel lighter. It would feel worse, actually, you know, and I worked really hard with detectives, and I had really incredible detectives, and they voluntarily took DNA from they found 50 people at college. And that was a lot because, remember, I was there early. It wasn't the packed ASU campus yet, right? So they went through the list of literally everybody that they thought. And there was one guy in particular that I thought maybe had done it because your brain says, even though I couldn't see, but I thought, I have to know this person. There's no way this is a complete stranger. And there was a guy that had been in my apartment with my roommate, and, I don't know, he kind of like irked me out a little bit. I had some weird feelings, and he wanted to watch the Ted Bundy movie. And I was, you know, like, I didn't know anything about Ted Bundy and that, like, haunted me. I had to go back into my room and watch like Sister Act. I'm not kidding. You know, it was just one of those, not to laugh, but like, it was one of those things that I felt unsettled around him. And that night, he had called my apartment at 3 a.m.. And so I thought for sure, this is him. They voluntarily collected DNA from about 50 people. He wouldn't give his DNA. I mean, this poor guy, I actually called him on the phone while it was being recorded, accusing him of coming into my apartment that night, and he finally volunteered his DNA up.
[00:10:17] Ashley Spence: And I was just terrified and heartbroken because it finally came back. And it wasn't him. It wasn't a match. And after that, I was just devastated. And then I was scared because I thought for sure it was him. And then I thought maybe, how? How could I be that wrong? How could I be that wrong even though I didn't see his face? So DNA has become a really impactful tool to me in that sense, too. And so I ended up dropping out of school. It was all over the news. You know, I tried to go to school and I had bruises all over my body, and I felt like everyone was staring at me and I literally sit down and I run out of class because I have this debilitating panic attack. Like, I used to get panic attacks so bad that I would have to go to the hospital, I couldn't breathe, I thought my body was stopping on me, and it was because he he threatened my life and I thought, what is he sitting behind me? Is he waiting for me? He told me he would kill me. It's all over the news. Like I was terrified. So I dropped out of school, and then I moved to Newport Beach. And, you know, I tried to just be me and not talk about it. And that was also very damaging. I mean, I began coping and numbing out with, like, massive amounts of alcohol, Xanax, marijuana, anything, anything to not have to feel the fear and the pain and the shame and just I felt so disconnected from my body.
[00:11:33] Ashley Spence: And, you know, finally, I'm not going to go into this whole story, but I did. I found this beautiful practice of yoga because my mom had done it growing up. And then my roommate took me to a class because, God bless her, she she stuck by my side through the amount of pain that I unintentionally put on her going through this, you know, and I found yoga and it started to get me clear. And I was finding power over my anxiety, and I was able to finally surrender and just understand I might not be able to ever have closure or I might not ever know who this is, but, you know, maybe I'm going to be okay. And I went to community college, then graduated college, got a job, got married. We're no longer together, but we have two wonderful kids. And, you know, I tried so hard to just be normal. But then after seven years, I kind of gave up hope. And I got that shocking phone call that there was a DNA match. And the emotion is it's unexplainable. And I was so grateful because I thought maybe he would never be able to harm anybody again. And then I was also kind of resentful because I thought, My God, I almost died. You know, I nearly numbed myself to death. And, you know, here I am. I fought so hard to just feel normal again. And now I'm going to have to go through this. I didn't know if I was strong enough, truly.
[00:12:42] Debbie Millman: Ashley, one thing that I haven't asked you about, but I think is so important to your story is that despite the fact that your perpetrator told you that he would kill you if you reported this or told anybody about what happened, you did it anyway. Where did that courage come from?
[00:13:01] Ashley Spence: It's a great question. You know, I didn't think any other way in the moment. I just said I'm not. We are calling 911. But I think it's really important because everyone's journey is different, right? And I do want to preface with that. And we all have our circumstances are not the same. And I was very, very lucky because my first responding officer was treated me with such compassion. And I'm now I'm very passionate about sharing this. How important that first initial contact for victims to have is. It is critical. Had I been treated any other way, I don't know if I would have been brave enough to take the next step. I really, really don't. But because of that initial response, it kind of, okay, now maybe I can move forward. And then my forensic nurse was very highly trained and skilled and you know, she allowed me to sit in that room to eventually get the DNA evidence for hours, you know, and and I have great empathy for every survivor that has to go through that because it's very hard. But there was no other way. But I also want to say every situation is different when you're a survivor.
[00:14:02] Debbie Millman: Well, I do think it's important to acknowledge the extraordinary strength and courage that it took for you to do that.
[00:14:12] Ashley Spence: Thank you.
[00:14:13] Debbie Millman: Ultimately, you were able to receive justice because law enforcement had collected the perpetrator's DNA at the time of his arrest. Before we get into the broader issue of lawfully owed DNA, could you walk us through how that process unfolded in your situation?
[00:14:32] Ashley Spence: Yes. So he was in Newport Beach, as I briefly mentioned. So he was in Newport Beach, California, and it's like a tiny beach town. So I was on 40th Street. He was on 41st. What happened was I wasn't living there at that time. Now, it had been like a year or so since I had been away, but he was actually trying to break into a home where these three young girls lived in California on 41st Street in Newport Beach, and an officer happened to see him. They get into some sort of conversation that turns into an altercation, and he ends up getting arrested for resisting the arrest of a police officer. That was a felony he was flagged on. So totally unrelated from mine, right. So resisting the officer's arrest was what they took DNA from, because in California, that is a felony. They are one of 19 states that it doesn't matter which felony. It all felonies. They will swab your cheek. So they took him in, took a minimally invasive cheek swab, his fingerprints, his photographs. And then that is what triggered a process that it literally saved my life and multiple who knows how many others, because when they got the DNA and the database uploaded finally and coming to lawfully owed DNA, they did an incredible job. They did what they were supposed to. They collected his DNA at booking. They uploaded it into the database. And because of that, it matched to mine and multiple others. But you know, the law in Arizona where I was raped, they would not have swabbed his cheek for that. So he would still be out there today had he been arrested in Arizona. You know, because they don't have this law. So I thank God every day that he was caught in California because they do have this law. And we went to trial. He's in prison for 137.5 years purely through DNA.
[00:16:03] Debbie Millman: Given the perpetrator in your case had a prior criminal record, a vast, deep prior criminal record, it's possible that if his DNA had been collected earlier, your case could have been solved sooner and potentially prevented all of the other subsequent victims. Was there a specific moment when you realized your voice could help address this issue for other survivors?
[00:16:27] Ashley Spence: Yes. You know, that kind of haunts me in a way, too, because I think about all the people that that came after me. There were actually a few women. I've never met them, but I learned a lot about them, and it was years after mine. And I just thought, gosh, had he been caught earlier, you know how many lives could be saved? And there was a woman that I deeply admire in this work, and her daughter was not as fortunate as me, and she did not survive. And so she advocated for years for this. And, you know, I realized, like mothers that would maybe have their daughters here, the amount of young women that, you know, would never have to endure what I did or worse, that is the fuel for me. That's the why.
[00:17:03] Debbie Millman: Ashley, how did your organization, the DNA Justice Project, first come about? What provoked you to take that next step into advocacy?
[00:17:13] Ashley Spence: I never thought I would. Well, I didn't speak to my story, even to my own brother. I didn't tell him for 13 years. It wasn't until after trial that I actually started telling people about this, really. It was a big, dark secret. So telling me, fast forward that I've been doing this for, for you know, my, my work and my sole purpose. I never thought it was possible. I had yoga studios, actually in Austin, and I thought that was going to be my give back. I found healing space in it, so I would create that, and I thought that was going to be it. But I started, you know, doing some different speaking engagements and like to the, to crime labs and forensic scientists and law enforcement, which I love speaking to the labs and everyone that works so hard in this. And I was just kind of doing that on the side. And in Texas, we had the legislation come up in 2017, 2019, and I met this woman, Jayann Sepich, there. So they asked me to come and share my story because I'm from Austin. You know, I'm in the capital city and I meet her and she is the one who lost her daughter. Her name was Katie Sepich, and she was a beautiful grad student in New Mexico. And she she tragically was killed and sexually assaulted. And her perpetrator was caught through DNA.
[00:18:22] Ashley Spence: But it's now called Katie's Law. So a similar law to what we're trying to advocate for. Her mother and father. And she had a sister and brother at the time. They never stopped fighting for her name. And so I met Jayann there. We testified and I did not know what I was doing at all. And, you know, she ended up calling me after that one night and she just said, you know, I'm going to drive down and talk to you in Austin, and there's something I gotta, I gotta ask you. And I had just sold my yoga studios, and I didn't really know why. I had this inner nudge, you know? And so she comes in and she's like, I have to retire. And you're the person that I want to fill these shoes and carry this on for. She was like, but I know you have your yoga studios. And I just start crying. And she's like, and you have two little kids. And I'm like, I actually sold them. I didn't know why. And now I see like, I okay, like I'll do this. And so I honor Katie and her mom. I talk about Katie in every speech, everything I carry, that legacy of the lives that Jayann and Katie together have saved. And if I can help use my story to save one life, then you know it's all worth it.
[00:19:21] Debbie Millman: Before we dive into the details, I want to provide our listeners some context about lawfully owed DNA. For those who may not be familiar, can you start by explaining what lawfully owed DNA means? Why is it such a critical gap in the criminal justice system, and what does it mean for survivors and public safety when this DNA isn't collected?
[00:19:45] Ashley Spence: That's a great question. So lawfully DNA means it's it's really a systemic failure, I think a systemic problem of, you know, failing to collect and test DNA as it's owed. So to make this more tangible, say you only collect for felony conviction, you're convicted of a felony, you owe your DNA by law, and we're missing it. And so the Department of Justice estimates there's 40 to 50,000 samples per state that we're missing, 40 to 50,000. I mean, that's on average, right? But that number is astronomically high. And you look at this and you think, wow, these are people that have been convicted of very violent felonies. Some might be convicted of violent sexual assault, violent homicide, you know, like, and we're missing their DNA. And there are many statistics that show that the people that are serial rapists, like felony level, have felony level criminal histories. It's a Case Western Reserve University study. So what you're looking at is you are missing violent serial predators. You're also possibly leaving innocent men and women in our prisons because we are letting these people slide under the radar. So it is a huge problem. But it's not just one state. And I'm really grateful to Joyful Heart for what they're doing to bring attention and awareness to this critical issue.
[00:21:04] Debbie Millman: Since 2010, the Joyful Heart Foundation has been committed to ending the rape kit backlog of kits sitting untested across the country. You've been a strong partner of Joyful Heart Foundation on legislation closely tied to rape kit reform. How does the collection of DNA from offenders connect to efforts to address the rape kit backlog?
[00:21:29] Ashley Spence: Absolutely. The work that Joyful Heart has done for years. I mean, it's groundbreaking just as a victim, too, to know, even if you don't get the justice. We all want that, and I want that for every victim. Every victim deserves it. But to know that your kit is being cared for, that you can track it. All these. It's being tested. To go through that whole process and to not have it tested is devastating or to have it destroyed or to be lost. The amount of pain that that causes the survivor that's already suffered so much, it's detrimental to their healing. So that is such important work. And then what we realized, too, is you can do the most incredible work on clearing the backlog, right? And testing every rape kit. But you have to have the other side of the coin working, which is the DNA database, in order to get the hit. So they really work hand in hand. And the more we can begin to enhance the DNA that is in our database in a just way, and collecting it, the felony arrest point, it's a very good system, a very just way. The more hits that we are going to get of these violent serial predators.
[00:22:33] Debbie Millman: What are the factors that contributed to this backlog of uncollected DNA and what challenges exist today to addressing them?
[00:22:43] Ashley Spence: We don't want to point fingers because it's actually complex, and it's a problem that every state has, and many of them are trying to address it. But, you know, it can be anything from missed court orders, ignored court hearings. People aren't sure as far as agencies who's supposed to collect the DNA. There could be a manual or flawed process. So when they upload it, it is not done correctly. Sometimes people just actually aren't informed that they're supposed to have their DNA given right, or they can just kind of get by without going to room 302 after they've been convicted of a crime, and they just miss them. I mean, there's not one thing. We're also missing a lot in the prisons. And I just want to say, I've worked a lot with the jailers and they work so hard. The conditions are incredibly hard, but we are missing some there. There's a lot of turnover. So it's not just one thing or another that we can point to, but we really need to uncover what is the actual scale and scope of this problem and how do we shut down these collection loopholes.
[00:23:39] Debbie Millman: In thinking about the laws, can you help us understand what the current landscape of state legislation specifically related to DNA collection looks like right now? How do the rules differ depending on each state?
[00:23:53] Ashley Spence: I was very shocked. I didn't know much about forensic DNA until after my trial. So there was about 13 years from the time of my assault to actual trial process. So once that ended, I felt strong enough finally, and I was shocked and in not a good way to find out that not every state collected DNA for felony arrest. So all 50 states right now collect for the conviction of a felony. Okay. Of those, 31 do certain violent felony arrests. So those are, you know, your high homicides, violent sexual assaults and burglary. Now, of those 31, 19, my home state of Texas became the 19th state to collect for every single felony arrest. So the same law that caught my perpetrator in California, Texas now does, but it's something that we've been doing federally since the DNA Fingerprint Act of 2005. But you have to unfortunately do it state by state, and it takes a while to get people to understand the database.
[00:24:47] Debbie Millman: Why is it taking so long? Why is this something that even needs further discussion or defense?
[00:24:55] Ashley Spence: I couldn't believe how difficult this process is. I've had a lot of heartache in this and I thought, you know, well, maybe I've been through this and, you know, been through the depths of hell to survive and now finally feel strong enough and my, my story is going to be enough. And we're just going to go state to state and it's going to be easy. But I learned quickly that is not the case. And it is heartbreaking because I know not only will it save lives like mine and prevent maybe my child from going through this or your child, but also one of my board members, he was wrongfully convicted of rape. We look at the other side, through a photo identification, never tested the DNA. He spent 18.5 years in prison, finally exonerated through DNA. But the injustice in that regard, I also can't imagine. And so you have these two sides, powerful, you know, very big reasons why we need to be doing this. But people get worried. They think, don't take my DNA because they think 23andMe, forensic genetic genealogy, which is solving incredible crimes. But it's a very different process than our database. And I won't bore you with too much details, but our national DNA database has been around since 1998. So for 27 years since we've had it, we've had zero breaches into the database. And what goes in there isn't all of our DNA. It's just 20 to 24 markers. It wouldn't say I'm Lebanese. It wouldn't say I'm predisposed to genetic diseases. It doesn't even have a name in there. It's simply numbers. It's not accessible by third parties. You can't be precluded from getting a job by having your DNA in there. Your arrest record is public, your DNA is not. And I think this is really important for listeners to to know that it's a federal law and requirement. If you're found not guilty, you have to be able to have your DNA expunged and completely destroyed from the database. There are audits on the labs, heavy jail time and fines if it's not followed through with. So it's a very, very good system.
[00:26:43] Debbie Millman: So if your perpetrator had been arrested, his DNA wouldn't have been collected unless he was convicted.
[00:26:50] Ashley Spence: Correct, of a felony. And even in that, there are a lot of studies that show it's hard to actually get convicted of a felony. So that's why we're saying we need to take it down to the point of arrest. My perpetrator was in and out of trouble, in jail for voyeurism, burglary, theft. I mean, he had a lengthy criminal history, but he also got away with it. He was married with a wife and a son, had a shed behind his home of women's underwear and ID cards he had stored from all of his victims. And the fact that he was able to fly under the radar was because he was not actually getting convicted of some of these, or they were missing the collections. And that's where we get into the issue of lawfully DNA, too.
[00:27:25] Debbie Millman: So in your own case, the perpetrator's DNA was collected because California law requires DNA collection upon arrest for felonies.
[00:27:36] Ashley Spence: We had to wait on a Supreme Court ruling, actually. So in 2013, there was a very, very big case called Maryland versus King. And they found that taking your DNA cheek swab for qualifying arrest is a reasonable part of the booking procedure under the Fourth Amendment. They actually compare it to fingerprinting. You know, it's a modern—I look at every area that we've advanced in technology and the criminal justice system has to keep up. And so, you know, because of that, we were able to go to trial and they found him guilty on 13.5 counts just against my case alone. And in trial, they proved it was 38 trillion times this man's DNA on me than anybody else's. And technology had advanced. So all the stories I told detectives, they were able to find that DNA trace. And when they retested it on my body. And so it made for incredibly compelling evidence in court. So the other victims chose not to to move forward. And I totally understand that, because I saw that he would get a lengthy sentence from my case first.
[00:28:28] Debbie Millman: 137 years.
[00:28:30] Ashley Spence: Yes.
[00:28:32] Debbie Millman: Thinking about these variations more broadly, how do differences in DNA collection laws impact survivors and the speed at which crimes can be solved?
[00:28:43] Ashley Spence: That is what breaks my heart. You work, you know, in this work, too. You hear these stories, and there's so many people that are waiting for justice, and we don't want them to lose hope. And I encourage people don't lose hope because there are so many advancements and there are really good people doing good work. And we're seeing cases get closed that we thought wouldn't be able to, from 40 plus years. Right. But when we continue to not pass these collection DNA laws, or when we miss the DNA collections or even convictions, victims will continue to have justice withheld. They will continue to. But it doesn't have to be that way. We can change and enhance and amplify these processes, and we can get swift justice to victims and their families.
[00:29:23] Debbie Millman: Well, speaking of swift justice, you've been a strong advocate for rapid DNA testing technology. Can you talk about what this is and the difference between what was used in the past?
[00:29:35] Ashley Spence: Yes, absolutely. You know, it's really incredible. And it kind of looks like a printer almost. So it's this machine. And in 90 minutes you can upload a single source sample. So like DNA, saliva, all sorts of things like that into the machine in 90 minutes. If you have the law, like in Texas, we just got passed to collect DNA at booking, so similar to California. Now we have this machine we're going to try in the booking station. And it will help us to shut down the collection loophole because we literally can swab the cheeks. It's a law enforcement tool. Upload it into a cartridge, put it in this printer, in the booking facility and in 90 minutes, it can count down and see if they are connected to any of the most violent unsolved crimes on what's called the disk. In about 24 hours, they can check our entire national DNA database. So this is a great law enforcement tool that produces lab quality results. We have these enormous backlogs at the crime labs. And what this can do is it can actually help free up so the labs can focus on the very complex cases that really, really need their attention.
[00:30:35] Ashley Spence: So we're looking at this technology and you know, you can even use it now, the FBI just announced a few months ago you can use it on crime scene evidence. So again, we're not talking in most cases like rape kits, it does best with single source samples. But if you're on the scene of a crime, you can actually test the evidence. And it can check in 90 minutes to see if it's linked to any other crimes around the entire country. I mean, it's groundbreaking. And again, I just I want to see so many states start to adopt this because I know what it feels like to wait for justice. I mean, I lived seven years in fear and, you know, seven years I would hear just screams of his next victims. Literally. I couldn't sleep at night. I couldn't, you know, do most normal, functioning things. But I survived. But I cared most about what I knew he was out there doing. And so to know we have a technology that could potentially catch and exonerate people. Literally both ends of the coin in 90 minutes. It's huge.
[00:31:28] Debbie Millman: It's groundbreaking, as you said. Has there been any resistance to adopting this technology?
[00:31:35] Ashley Spence: The DNA collection I have transparently a harder time getting passed, but the rapid DNA, it actually brings every side together that most people can't really see. Why not? Why not use this and expedite? You can separate high risk offenders from low risk. Like literally on day one of an investigation. There are so many benefits. The hurdle obviously is the funding and just the start up costs that it takes. But because it is a newer technology and I tell people, you know, we had start up costs when we started CODIS, the national DNA database. Like when you have these things that end up transforming the landscape, ultimately we will save money. But it's a newer technology. But you do have to put a little bit of an investment in order to change the way that things were going to make it better, and this will make it better. And I think in rapid time, literally, we will be able to catch violent offenders. And that does ultimately save money for the time detectives have for the people that are harmed, the other cases. And we can close that down very quickly.
[00:32:29] Debbie Millman: Yeah, it's somewhat unjustified that money should be an issue in any of this, should be an obstacle in any of this. Your advocacy has really shined a light on an issue that has been long overlooked and has helped drive real legislative change. Thank you for that. Thinking about all the work you've done, what would you say are your biggest successes thus far?
[00:32:56] Ashley Spence: Well, I have to say, a lot of times these bills don't pass. Okay. And so I go and I have to travel alone on a nonprofit budget. I fundraise through my foundation. And, you know, I'm going and literally knocking on doors and representatives, and then you have to find an elevator pitch of sharing something so vulnerable. And then how do you get the facts in there and all these things. Right. And you pour your heart out there, and then I go and testify, and I'm away from my children and my family and my loved ones a lot, a lot. And you come home and you think it's going to pass. And then, you know, at the the last hour it blows up and fails. And that that has happened more than my wins. But I have to think, you know, okay, I've had to shift like this is like a marathon, okay. Things are going to take time. And even if I'm advancing educating people, that's progress. But it's still it doesn't feel the same. But in Texas, when I got in 2023 with an amazing group of people, Representative Smith and Senator Creighton, we passed the very law that caught my perpetrator in California, and I got to sit in the Senate chamber, and my children are now ten and 11. They were they were younger then, but they didn't know exactly what happened to mommy.
[00:34:00] Ashley Spence: They know that she went through a very, someone hurt her, and she went through something very hard. And now that's why I go and I travel, you know, I explain to them, and they got to sit in the Senate chamber and they got to hear the bill be read, and they got to see it become a law. You know, it's not easy. It's it's very hard and, you know, to overcome heartache. But we will all encounter heartache in our own way and tragedy in certain ways. But we can overcome and make good of it. That was like the greatest. And then just to really quickly wrap it up, the even better part was because I don't do this for me. I do this for others, for my daughter, for everyone's children. And in one year, Texas DPS just came out with the numbers and they closed 1005 cases, cold cases just from this law in one year. And we just got a story that was out of a woman that was so horrifically murdered, and they caught her perpetrator through this law. And so her family will get justice. We can't bring her back, but getting that closure and protecting the next victim. So that is definitely my why. And it's my reminder of this is why I do it. Even though it's so hard. It's really hard. Yeah.
[00:35:03] Debbie Millman: Well, it's not just a success. It's world changing, Ashley. And it's extraordinary that you're doing this important work for yourself and for so many. I have one last question for you. Where can people go if they want to find out more about the DNA Justice Project?
[00:35:22] Ashley Spence: Thank you. It's DNAJusticeProject.org is my website. I'm really working on the social media. I have an Instagram handle @DNAjusticeproject. Right now I've been doing everything kind of on my own, but I just spoke at the UT college, and I met this amazing girl who's been helping me a little bit with the website. So it's growing. Just know that. Be patient with it. But I'm slowly and steadily growing. And I'm just I'm so grateful because I want every state that I go to this session I'm getting better about, okay, this is where I'm going. And when we have hearings, I need all the mama bears, all the survivors, everybody that believes in this work. I need their voices because I can't make this change alone. This takes an enormous group, and I need people state to state. So I would be so grateful for people that are interested to get involved. I manage the social media. So if you message me, I will message you back. And I'm working on some templates for people to call in to their legislators and, you know, to really make their voices heard. Because ultimately people that are in each state, like, we all have to come together. We can't do this alone. So if you are interested in that, I would be so grateful. So grateful.
[00:36:28] Debbie Millman: Ashley Spence, thank you so much for sharing your story and for the incredible work you do for survivors. Your resilience is truly inspiring and I'm so grateful that you joined me today on Survivor Stories.
[00:36:43] Ashley Spence: Debbie, I am so honored. Thank you so much and thank you to Joyful Heart. You are all my heroes. You truly are. Thank you.
[00:36:50] Debbie Millman: I'm Debbie Millman, the host of Survivor Stories, a podcast of the Joyful Heart Foundation. For more information or to support the work of Joyful Heart, please visit JoyfulHeartFoundation.org. And don't forget to subscribe to the show, leave a review and please share with your friends. Be well and thank you for listening.
